Wednesday, 21 December, 2005

1. By nisucy. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @07:17pm:

   How do you know it didn't happen?
2. By J-Walk. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @07:20pm:

   Well, since there is not a single documented "miracle" I'll go with the odds.
3. By Daniel. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @07:25pm:

   Don't you just love how the missionaries rush into the poorest and most tragic places to 'help' the people?
   
   Then they return to their own countries and report back how many people they 'converted', and if they're lucky, the people who suffered through the various disasters will receive some aid and help too.
   
   There was a good south park episode about this, with the missionaries in Ethiopia
   
   Starving guy in the desert - 'what did you bring me, food?'
   Missionary with collaed shirt - 'No, but here is a bible with your christian name written on it - Michael! Let's read it together'
4. By nisucy. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @08:04pm:

   Do you believe in extra-terrestrial life? There is no documented proof of that.
5. By J-Walk. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @08:12pm:

   Yes, I do believe in extra-terrestrial life, even though it hasn't been documented. That belief is based on reasoning and my understanding of probability and statistics.
   
   Belief in extra-terrestrial life is very different from belief in miracles on our planet. In 2000 years of recorded history on earth, there is not a single adequately-documented "miracle." And my reasoning tells me that there will never be such a thing.
6. By RCC. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @09:08pm:

   What about that grilled cheese sandwich with the Virgin Mary on it,
   that was a miracle! If not, it had to of been a miracle that someone paid $28,000 for it. The thing was 10 years old!
7. By nisucy. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @09:46pm:

   You say there hasn't been an adequetly documented miracles. Have you read every document created? Have you searched out miracles? I've read about miracles in plenty of books. A friend of mine, who is a sociology prof. at UMaine researched a christian mystic healer in Cyprus for ten years and wrote a trilogy about him. He saw plenty of miracles, and he was as much of a skeptic as you seem to be. Don't allow those silly bible beaters, who see the virgin mary in their oatmeal and claim it to be a miracle, disuade you from something that may very well be real. You liked the book by Sam Harris, End of Faith, at the end of the book he speaks of the validity of esoteric religion, which he also calls it experiments in consciousness. Religion is a terrible label that encomposes too many ideas. How can a Sufi and an evangelical christian fall under the same label, or how about a buddhist and a baptist. I used to easily discount such ideas, until I made an effort to find out for myself
8. By nisucy. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @09:47pm:

   It won't hurt to read it, it's interesting. There is even a story about UFOs and skylab.
   
   http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0140190341/qid=1135226418/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-3109805-1054525?n=507846&s=books&v=glance
9. By Brett H.. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @09:55pm:

   You mean that Dan Rather using forged documents, his whole production staff for that story is fired and he remains behind at CBS untouched isn't a miracle? No wait, he's not a baptist, my bad - continue with your web surfing.
10. By J-Walk. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @09:57pm:

    Just point to ONE miracle, that everyone agrees upon.
11. By Curtis. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @10:09pm:

    "Just point to ONE miracle, that everyone agrees upon."
    
    Have you secretly been taking rhetoric lessons from wok, J-Walk?
12. By Southerly Breeze. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @10:10pm:

    J-Walk: You couldn't get everyone to agree that water (or pick your favorite substance) flows downhill much less trying to get everyone to agree on a miracle.
13. By Daniel. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @10:21pm:

    The problem with miracles is if they occur, the majority of the population hurriedly blocks them out of their minds because they don't conform to the accepted standards of what's possible, and the few who still believe are seen as quacks or weirdos.
    
    The other problem with miracles is that they may occur no matter what someone's religion is, or even if someone has no religion. Thus, something else is clearly going on other than 'god did it'.
14. By nisucy. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @11:10pm:

    Just point to one extra terrestial civilization every agrees upon.
    
    Does everyone agree with evolutions? No. Does this make you doubt evolution?
    
    Do you believe in sub-atomic particles. Because I'm sure there are more people who have claimed to witness miracles, or seen ufo's, than have had an oppourtunity to use an electron microscope.
    
    Do you believe in ghosts? Have you seen one?
15. By seapixy. Comment posted 21-Dec-2005 @11:48pm:

    i have a feeling what unnerved you more in this article than the "miracle" is the somewhat passive arrogance it conveyed. ie: muslim's faith didn't bring miracles, *but* christian's faith did. do miracles happen? or are they just lies to fool people into believing in religious systems that translate to worldly power? there's no way to prove miracles. are miracles exclusively christian? no. there are thousands of religions, most believe in some inexpiicable phenomena. but religion has a track record as a means to control and manipulate populations into sometimes irrational/harmful behaviors. people stop intelligently questioning and religion takes over. people confuse religion with spirituality. both require "faith", but religion is public faith, pronouncements, ritual, proving you're "worthy" to your congregation. spiritual faith is a personal journey inward to merge with that which is incomprehensible, with no need to control others.
16. By Park Ave.. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @12:40am:

    There is a difference between extra terrestrial life and extra terrestrial intelligent life. Do you believe in both? Important difference J-Walk, if you work the numbers out as Barrow did in his book: “The Anthropic Cosmological Principal”
    http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/finetuned.html
    http://www.anthropic-principle.com/bibliography/bib.html
    The most expensive book I’ve ever seen on Amazon:
    http://www.anthropic-principle.com/book/
    That must be some 224 pages or a misprint.
    
    You can't see sub-atomic particles with an electron microscope and if you could there is still the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and wave particle duality to deal with. We know of sub-atomic particles only indirectly.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenberg_Uncertainty_Principle
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_particle_duality
17. By Park Ave.. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @12:41am:

    Maybe God is like a quantum mechanical particle that cannot be directly observed but is only known indirectly. A fideistic approach to God: that God created the universe in such a way that his existence can neither be proved or disproved and knowing of him is possible through faith alone?
    
    Of course, string theory and its corollary: extra-dimensional analysis is fungible with probabilistic quantum mechanical modeling in the God analogy even as this is one of many examples of an immutable physical “proof” being displaced by another.
18. By KeithUK. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @03:10am:

    All this reminds me of Agent Mulder's "I Want To Believe" poster. If you want to believe then no amount of logic, reasoned argument or common sense will stop you.
    
    What I find interesting is why people - who often appear to know or care very little about the real world around them - desperately want to believe this nonsense.
    
    "and the few who still believe are seen as quacks or weirdos."
    
    That, I'm afraid, is because they're quacks or weirdos.
19. By David. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @04:25am:

    They are just hard up for more believers (read as doners $$$).
20. By Joel. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @05:53am:

    How do you "document" a miracle? Aren't miracles supposed to be unpredictable? If miracles were to be always documented then they would cease to be miracles.
    It's also interesting to note that J-Walk believes in aliens but not God.
    "Yes, I do believe in extra-terrestrial life, even though it hasn't been documented. That belief is based on reasoning and my understanding of probability and statistics."
    I would like to see the reasoning behind this.
21. By Bobo. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @06:12am:

    "In 2000 years of recorded history on earth, there is not a single adequately-documented "miracle.""
    
    I didn't know you were such an expert on this field to claim these "facts."
    
    Come on... you ask us to use good sense with our statements and then blurt something out like that? And yes, you are starting to sound just like wok.
22. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @06:15am:

    Hey Jwalk. That is a very illogical question. How can everyone agree on a miracle unless everyone was there?
    
    For that matter, why should we believe you are the one writing those Excel books? Sure your name is on them, you are given credit for them, and you say you wrote them. And everyone blindly believes this, even though everyone is not there when you write them.
    
    What about personal experience. Do you believe in that? Or does someone's personal experience have to fall under your umbrella of logic to be true.
    
    Let me know and I will share again a smidgen of my own personal experience; the part that keeps me faithful to God.
23. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @06:19am:

    I love to read park ave's comments.
    
    I have no idea what he's saying. But boy he sure sounds good.
24. By Sheldon. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @07:22am:

    Is it miricles or coincidence? Statistics and faith? Remember in Pulp Fiction when Vinnie Barbarino got shot at, and every bullet missed him? That was an incredible event. You can call it a miricle, but then who do you blame? Fate? Budda? Chuckie Cheese? The laws of probability? I've seen a kid riding really fast on his bike hit a mail box, and skid across the pavement face first. When he got up, he was unhurt. What was that?
25. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @07:34am:

    Um...Sheldon, Pulp Fiction is a movie.
    
    As far as the kid on the bike? it's not something we'll ever know. I would say there is a chance that it was intervention of some kind. Or maybe he was just lucky about how he hit the ground. I had similar experiences with my car; slammed up against a guard rail by a yogurt truck, hit so hard the the guy in front of me heard it and stopped, but not a scratch on the car. I don't know why the car wasn't damaged. But I cannot for sure call it a miracle.
    
    There are things that have happened to me that I simply cannot label coincidence.
    
    But as far as the bike and the car? it just might be that he just needs to pay more attention while riding. And I needed to be more aware of a lane closure.
26. By Fred. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @07:42am:

    If the definition of miracle here is "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs" or "a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law", then I too would like to hear of a confirmed event like this.
    I would be interested in an event(s) that was/were observed by independent people. Learned, unemotional, unattached, and unaffected people who could report the event in an unbiased way.
    
    To my knowledge there are none. No events in history that can not be explained in a rational scientific way.
    
    I have been involved in the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) project for many years. You can look at a brief history of the project at http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/classic.php . They haven't found ET yet, but they have enough evidence and hope that they have gotten more funding, more sponsors, more people and other recourses to recently expanded the project.
27. By Fred. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @07:47am:

    Ooops. Should have been resources instead of recources.
28. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @08:06am:

    The problem with that Fred is that a miracle is not planned for witnesses.
    
    I will open myself to ridicule again:
    
    Eighteen years ago I was a drug addict. I had tried to quit but would only last a matter of hours. I was studying the Bible in order to find out more about Christianity. But I knew that I would not go for it because I enjoyed doing drugs.
    
    I was still partying as hard as before I started studying. I was at a party and we had gone through all that we had, and went out and got more. I remember thinking that the morning was going to be rough!
    
    I woke up at around 6AM without the slightest hint of the night before. As a matter of fact, I felt like I had never done drugs in my life, like going jogging. And somehow, I understood that I was done with drugs for the rest of my life. The temptation was removed from me.
    
    2 things: either that didn't happen, or it did.
    If it didn't then I am a liar.
    If it did, then explain how.
29. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @08:09am:

    As far as witnesses?
    
    There were folks who saw me the night before and the day after. They all thought I was kidding. 18 yrs later = no joke.
30. By Daniel. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @08:28am:

    The OTHER funny thing about 'miracles' is that if they happen to someone, that person might think 'wow' and 'cool' and 'it was amazing', and then continue to live a very ordinary life with nothing special happening in it at all. So if the miracle happened or didn't happen, makes almost no difference in the course of events of the world.
    
    In this case, you really need to ask yourself - miracles - why bother?
31. By Hellbound Alleee. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @08:36am:

    If you have to believe in miracles because you haven't looked for evidence for every single possible miracle claim in the universe, then everyone who believes in miracles also has to believe in every single claim of every single deity, pseudoscience, folklore, legend, etc. Yet believers don't. What's with that? How dare they not believe in Cthulu or Rama leprechauns? I mean, they haven't looked all over the universe at every claim of those, have they?
    
    You don't have to travel the universe for existence of the supernatural. By its very definition, it cannot exist in the natural world. Contradictions cannot exist. This is how the laws of the universe work. They must work everywhere. There is nowhere in the world that gravity stops working. So J-Walk and everyone else are not required to believe in breaking the laws of the universe. Those who believe in miracles have a lot of 'splaining to do to prove new laws of the universe--that work EVERYWHERE.
32. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @08:40am:

    That's pretty limited thinking, Daniel.
    
    You don't believe that someone could react to an event in their live in such a way as to impact someone else?
    
    The whole direction of my life changed in a matter of 3 hours and you're saying I should not bother thinking about it?
    
    Are you a boring person? (That is not an insult. I really want to know if you respond to life with any level of emotion, or depth of feeling.)
33. By Saltus. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @08:45am:

    Danny, my sincere congratulations on your having dropped drugs. I am sure that was miraculous to you. Unfortunately, that does not qualify as a miracle for anyone else.
    
    Even if Jesus himself appeared to you and convinced you to stop using drugs, it still would not qualify as a miracle unless there was strong evidence to the appearance besides your testimony. For something like that, videotapes of the appearance, plus several skeptical witnesses, plus numerous recurrences of the experience to skeptical people, all those together, would constitute evidence. Of course, there is no evidence of such miracles. There are none.
    
    Your rehabilitation by itself is no evidence of a miracle, as it can be explained much more believably by a likely change that took place within your own mind. To be sure, it is probably better to be faithful (read delusional) than addicted, but you really do not need either to function in life or society.
34. By Fred. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @08:54am:

    Danny Kaye,
    A couple of weeks ago I celebrated 30 years in AA. I have seen many thousand of alcoholics (and drug addicts, and gamblers and other addicted people) recover over the years. They come from all faiths, beliefs, religion, education level, ages, sex, rich and/or poor. Christian (Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, etc), Buddhist, Islamic, Celtic, Native American, etc. Even some are Atheist.
    
    In my observation and experience, none are left out and none have any clear advantage over the others in recovery. It is also my observation and experience that there is a huge difference between spirituality and religion.
    Over the years I have seen hundreds of people with "religion" relapse and eventually die. I have seen thousands of people with true spirituality recover and prosper and become very good long term assets to themselves, their families, their employers/employees, and their communities.
    
    Do those people fit in the above definition of "miricle"? ....Maybe.
35. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @08:56am:

    I agree with you to a point Hellbound Allee.
    
    If it takes multiple laws of the universe to be broken in order to be true, chances are it is a stretch, (not impossible, mind you, but definately a stretch regarding God's usual workings as recorded in the Bible).
    
    The part that makes no sense to non-believes is the part that separates us anyway: faith in God.
    
    I believe that God can do anything.
    If He needs to, He can cause anything to happen despite any laws of the universe.
    
    Please explain my story so I understand other options of what may have happened. (No, that is not sarcasm, I really want to hear.)
    
    And I don't believe in leprechauns.
36. By Fred. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @09:09am:

    I ran into the 1000 word restriction. Sorry.
    
    I am looking for some event brought about by some supernatural force. Not some event that is like a Magic Act done by a magician, or some event that is huge and obvious like a river carving a valley between two mountains.
    I would like to know of something that happened in the last few thousand years that can be verified by trustworthy people, but yet cannot be explained by scientific enquiry.
37. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @09:11am:

    Saltus, I refuse to believe that my mind has control over what effects drugs had on my body.
    
    Please explain how the days and weeks of physical withdrawls were skipped. Please explain why all color, (which is a bit faded after years of drugs), came back to me instantly instead of slowly. Please explain to me how healthy I was the day after the night before.
    
    Please explain how my incredible mind controlled all of that.
    
    And I have left out several other things that happened in a matter of a few days that brought me to the point of studying Christianity in the first place. There are too many things that happened too quickly for me to call them all coincidence.
38. By Park Ave.. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @09:14am:

    Historically, a great many civilizations, including the Greeks, believed that randomness (the unpredictable part of statistics) is the hand of God at work.
    
    Even the Gods of Greek mythology all answered to something greater than themselves, what they called "Chance."
    
    Personally, I believe atheism is the belief that you are God, only what you know can exist, a religion of self-worship.
39. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @09:20am:

    Fred, my story does not fit into the package of "rehabilitaion" because I did nothing in order to be rehabilitated. It was a sudden, and unplanned change in my body, mind, and life.
    
    I do not believe that everyone who has overcome an addiction should claim it as a miracle. Some of them are just plain old hard work and willpower. I have no problem with that and congratulate them (and you) with all my heart.
    
    I have my own life's experience to draw from. I was not around 1000 years ago. You want documents and proof from critical thinkers from back then. But I would venture a guess that even if they were provided you would not believe them simply because you apparently don't believe in the God of miracles.
40. By another larry. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @09:21am:

    and my understanding of probability and statistics.. sounds very math
    can I add this to my business card?
41. By Gee.... Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @10:45am:

    I guess Jebus decided these kids didn't pray so they should be crushed to death:
    http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2005/10/08/about_400_pakistani_school_children_dead_in_quake/
    
    This family didn't pray so they should burn:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051207/india_nm/india226867_1
    
    Then, of course, there's the other 74,000 (half of them children) that didn't pray:
    http://www.dawn.com/2005/11/13/top16.htm
    
    Nope...the idea of a 'loving god' is just too rediculous.
    
    At least, before Jebus came along, the gods were held responsible for the horrible things that happened in the world!
42. By Sheldon. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @11:02am:

    Hey Danny Kaye, maybe the mixture of drugs you took that nite happened to be THE CURE for drug addictions, and you discovered it and didn't know it?
43. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @11:07am:

    So what are you saying, gee? that only good things should happen in this world? or perhaps that bad things should only happen to bad people and good things should only happen to good people?
    
    Come on, now. If good things only happened to good people, and bad things only happened to bad people, then we would all be good just because we wouldn't want something bad to happen to us. That is not a life of faith, but a life of coercion.
    
    I feel terrible about tragedies, same as anyone else. But please keep a balance that bad things also happen to good people, too. It has little to do with who prayed and who didn't. Goodness, if that were the case most people would be fried by now.
44. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @11:09am:

    So I coulda been made rich by my own cocktails? Man, Sheldon, where were you 18 years ago?!?! I woulda split it with ya' just for the idea!
45. By Pancho. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @11:40am:

    LOL @ Danny Kaye!! The stuff you believe is just amazing!
    
    BTW, you have used up your FSOTD for a full couple of weeks on this thread alone.
46. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @11:52am:

    As I said, there ol' Poncho, I knew I would be ridiculed for sharing it. I expected it and would have been shocked if I didn't catch some flack for it.
    
    I can live with it if you can. ;-)
    
    BTW: what exactly is it you have a hard time believing that I believe?
47. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @11:53am:

    'scuse the mis-spelt name pancho.
48. By J-Walk. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @11:59am:

    Danny Kaye, I don't doubt your incredible recovery at all. I can't explain it, but that doesn't mean nobody else could. The human mind is capable of some amazing things. Have you researched the drug dependency literature as much as you've researched the bible? It's possible that this sort of thing happened to others -- maybe even without the religious explanation.
    
    You mention that you were studying the bible even before this event happened to you. So, you had a (perhaps unconsicous) predilection to attribute it to some supernatural power.
    
    Regardless, I'm glad you got your life turned around.
49. By Pancho. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @12:06pm:

    Danny, please do not misunderestimate my admiration for your ditching drugs. I laugh at your delusion only.
    
    You say, If it takes multiple laws of the universe to be broken in order to be true, chances are it is a stretch, (not impossible, mind you, but definately a stretch regarding God's usual workings as recorded in the Bible). But then you say, If He needs to, He can cause anything to happen despite any laws of the universe. LOL-1
    
    You ask Please explain how my incredible mind controlled all of that, referring to your rehab. Apparently, for you, that's more difficult to explain than divine intervention. LOL-2
    
    Then you say to Gee, about God's wonders: That is not a life of faith, but a life of coercion. That's so sweetly ironic that I almost spewed my drink. LOL-3.
    
    please keep a balance that bad things also happen to good people, too. It has little to do with who prayed and who didn't. WTF do ya pray for then.?? LOL-4. etc.
50. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @12:12pm:

    I would be inclined to agree with all of you if not for the days prior that led up to my studying the Bible. When a sequence of events takes place that also happens to coincide with a life altering event like the one I have described, it is a little difficult to shake it off as pure happenstance.
    
    I agree the human mind is capable of amazing things. But to control who comes in and out of my life, and when? and to have sports injuries occur at just the right time? and to make a decision to find God and have Him come and get me instead? and a bunch of other crazy stuff like that?
    
    Look, I didn't expect anyone to agree with my philosophy. And I expect that some are calling me a liar so as to "sway the masses" or some such foolishness as that. But what happened, happened. I choose to believe God orchestrated the events just perfectly as is described in Acts 17.
51. By Gee.... Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @12:24pm:

    Ya kinda missed my point there Danny.
    
    I wasn't saying anything about bad/good, maybe I was a bit vague...I was pointing out the irationality of this "miracle". Of all those 74,000 people, SOME of them had to have been praying like screaming-madness and that if there was a god, what a creepy monster to heal THIS group and torture THAT group. It's just not logical.
    
    It's also wrong to give credit for personal strength to a magical man in the sky. That's one of the cleverest ploys of churchs and religions...the idea that no one can do anything on their own, they have to have Jebus or who ever help them...what a great way to control how people think.
    
    Pancho-"That is not a life of faith, but a life of coercion" made me giggle too!
52. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @12:28pm:

    Panch,
    
    LOL 1 is strictly opinion on my part. When dealing with God's invisible qualities, that is all I can offer.
    
    LOL 2 is a question. I cannot believe a question, I can only pose one to you all and let you take a stab at answering it. No one has.
    
    LOL 3 If God exists, (i know, i know, you don't believe. work with me on this one for the sake of argument), wouldn't the fact that people are doing what is right to avoid being nuked by God strike you as coercion?
    
    LOL 4 I have stated before that I pray about many things. I am not above praying for amazing things to happen in my life. I pray for my family, friends, world situations. But the bulk of my prayers are focused on seeking guidance to overcome "issues" in my life that will make me more like Christ.
    
    Laugh all you want. You are a non-believer and are not supposed to "get it". It is only understood through the eyes of faith. You ain't got-em
53. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @12:48pm:

    Gee a quote from above:
    
    I do not believe that everyone who has overcome an addiction should claim it as a miracle. Some of them are just plain old hard work and willpower. I have no problem with that and congratulate them (and you) with all my heart.
    
    Posted by D.K.
    
    PS( I'm going back to Internet Explorer after a day of using firefox!!! I have no faith in its miraculous abilities!!
54. By Curtis. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @01:14pm:

    "...extra-dimensional analysis is fungible with probabilistic quantum mechanical modeling in the God analogy even as this is one of many examples of an immutable physical “proof” being displaced by another."
    
    Park Ave. -- Sir, you are an obfuscationist of the first water. I applaud you and especially your use of probabilistic.
55. By Mary. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @01:25pm:

    Nice job, seapixy, describing the difference between spirituality and religion. Fred, also, knows that there is a world of difference between the two.
    
    I think spirituality allows for miracles, but they're almost always private, personal ones; religion manufactures "miracles" to impress others.
    
    "Personally, I believe atheism is the belief that you are God, only what you know can exist, a religion of self-worship." Nicely put, Park Ave.
    
    And Bobo, as usual, nailed it.
    
    David: If you want to be nasty, SPELL IT RIGHT!! It's D O N O R S, for heaven's sake.
56. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @01:35pm:

    Mary, on which side of the fence would you place what I have described during this thread?
    
    Spiritual?
    
    Religious?
    
    Manufactured?
57. By Mary. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @01:41pm:

    The rest of this is just the usual testimony of a Christian that he's experienced a miracle healing and the claim of everyone else that since he can't prove it and since it's never happened to THEM, it was either his overactive imagination or he's a cheerful liar.
    
    Atheists and those who worship mathematics and science alone - those who acknowledge nothing that they cannot personally shake hands with - have no room in their universe for miracles. When miracles happen to them, they rationalize them away with formulae - that way they don't have to face the formidable "unknown." I still believe fear drives most of the avoidance, but certainly the human ego knows no bounds, so I suppose "If I can't explain it, it doesn't exist" keeps the peace for the rest.
    
    I'm glad you're free, Danny Kaye.
    
    I hope those in denial find themselves in a whirlwind of miracles.
58. By Curtis. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @01:42pm:

    "I believe atheism is... a religion of self-worship."
    
    There are the beliefs you believe; the thoughts you think you believe; the beliefs you think you believe you were thinking when you were believing in them with your eyes squeezed tightly shut; and the total bullcrap remarks of a true religious solipsist.
    
    Interestingly, Jason Kottke also uses today's vocabulary word on his blog --
    
    Chris Anderson has one of the best descriptions I've read of collective knowledge systems like Google, Wikipedia, and blogs: they're probabilistic systems "which sacrifice perfection at the microscale for optimization at the macroscale".
59. By Mean Jean. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @01:44pm:

    Hell, I can't get past "pompetus of love" much less delve into probabilistic. My synapses are snapped.
60. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @01:48pm:

    that's great Mean Jean!!! LOL bigtime
61. By Curtis. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @01:48pm:

    ...that way they don't have to face the formidable "unknown."
    
    Mary -- would you say that you know the unknown or have accepted it as the unknown you know you don't know and are improved or at least comforted by that knowledge of not knowing? I think many things people think they know (like God is Love or Carbs are Bad) are used by people to give themselves the illusion of control.
62. By Mean Jean. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @01:51pm:

    Being an atheist does NOT make me think I'm god. That is just a hysterical conceit. I accept that the universe is random.
63. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @01:51pm:

    curtis...that's twice in a row now you've dizzied us with your intellect.
    
    You and Rumsfeld buddies or something?
64. By Curtis. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @01:56pm:

    MJ -- you don't know your Steve Miller Band.
65. By Curtis. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:00pm:

    Steve Miller - The Joker Lyrics
    
    some people call me the space cowboy
    some call me the gangster of love
    some people call me maurice
    cause I speak with the pompetus of love
66. By Mean Jean. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:01pm:

    Oh I know it, I just don't know what the dickens it means. I love the talking guitar on that one.
67. By Gee.... Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:20pm:

    The big thing now is to say that atheism is a religion and chuckle behind your bibles that we're all just practicing another kind of religion and that if you "believers" are just persistent and we hear "the word" at the right time then Jebus will touch our hearts and we'll be converted.
    
    ~Atheism is NOT a religion and all this preaching and pretending to be persecuted is getting really old.
    
    We atheists aren't trying to convert anyone...we just wanna be left alone and not have to worry about our children being preached at in public schools by people who believe the world is only 5,000 years old or having our country (that we love) being run by people who base their decisions on what "god" tells them or having public money being used to promote someones religious agenda.
    
    Please stop it.
    Thank you.
68. By Toad. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:20pm:

    I'm glad you've recovered, Danny Kaye. Believe what you need to believe in order to stay that way.
69. By Curtis. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:22pm:

    Yeah, I don't know what it means either, MJ. Perhaps Mr. Ave. will enighten us, but somehow one doubts it.
70. By Curtis. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:34pm:

    DK -- Once you start playing around with Rumsfeld's wonderful language it's hard to quit, combine it with Park Ave.'s phrases and it's damn near addicting. It's a miracle I'm able to stop.
    
    Sure Toad, be glad for DK's recovery while leading me down the path to a full-blown Scotch addiction!
71. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:35pm:

    Wow, Gee. Get it off your chest, girl!
    
    I have heard others use the argument that atheism is a religion. Whatever. Don't make no to me. Sorry it offends you.
    
    But what I haven't read are any comments about us being persecuted. (perhaps there were some, but I don't think it's been such a dominant theme that you would think it's getting old.
    
    And its 6000 years, not 5000. I may not believe in that teaching, but for the sake of those who do, please let them have that 1000 years.
    
    Thank you.
72. By Toad. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:36pm:

    Curtis, it's only an addition if you want to stop and can't. If you want to give up scotch, I'll gladly take your stash off your hands. I'm here to help, brother.
73. By Toad. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:37pm:

    Uh, "addiction" that is.
74. By Danny Kaye. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:38pm:

    FINALLY!!!!
    
    An admission from Curtis that he believes in miracles.
    
    YES! YES!! YES!!! We've won! WE'VE WON!!!!!!!
    
    
    (oh, calm down. I'm just kidding)
75. By wok. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:46pm:

    
    
    /Comic nerd
76. By Curtis. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:50pm:

    "... your stash..."
    
    Last night I was out buying some Christmas wine and happened across this at a greatly reduced price. I'll be trying a sip or two Friday night.
77. By Mary. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:55pm:

    Actually, Curtis, as far as my own personal thoughts go, I'm comfortable leaving the "unknown" in the hands of God, and I trust that he has it all figured out and running smoothly. He doesn't have to explain it to me.
    
    I enjoy the "physics" - but only to a limit (not interested in a degree in it) and astronomy, and biology, and history and philosophy and - especially - Terry Pratchett.
    
    And all of it - even Pratchett - is perfectly compatible with a creator, a Master Designer, a supreme power, God.
    
    I'll leave the "control" part to him, and the need to figure it out for yourselves to youse guys.
78. By wok. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @02:58pm:

    Curtis is ethnically Lutheran?
    
    /haven't been reading the thread
79. By Mary. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @03:03pm:

    Gee, I agree about the issue of what schools should teach - especially in science classes. In social studies class, I think they should be shown what types of religions there are in the world and how those religions affect the cultures of the people, just as how the political systems affect the cultures, how the physical resources affect the cultures, etc.
    
    There are going to be kids in the science classes whose parents have instructed them to make a fuss about creationism when the science teacher opens the subject of the universe - IF they wait that long. Most likely they'll bring it up on the first day of class. The science teacher needs to simply tell them that creationism will be covered in their social studies classes along with other religious beliefs; in science class, we study the SCIENTIFIC standpoint only.
    
    Why is that so difficult?
    
    BTW, I read a lot more "persecution" blather from the atheists than from the Christians here.
80. By Mean Jean. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @03:04pm:

    Oh goody, it's afer 4 here and y'all are talking scotch....Oban, Dalwhinnie.
81. By Mary. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @03:05pm:

    Danny Kaye: Spiritual.
82. By Curtis. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @03:08pm:

    ...the need to figure it out...
    
    I have no such need Mary and your joining in on Mr. Ave.'s ridiculous statement about atheists making god's of themselves is suprisingly intolerant if not to say smug. Then you add insult to injury with your own statement - ...that way they don't have to face the formidable "unknown." We all have to face the formidable unknown -- that, and pay our taxes. We'll all do it in our own way in our own time and it pisses me to no end when religious people assert their deaths will be better than mine.
83. By wok. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @03:27pm:

    Ahh, 'Spiritual.' How Often Does That Mean Pick and Choose My Own Homemade Religion.
84. By another larry. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @03:28pm:

    miracle.. = craaaaap!
    What's a miracle about kicking a drug habit?
    
    miracles are like fairies
85. By Toad. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @03:32pm:

    How Often Does That Mean Pick and Choose My Own Homemade Religion
    
    Fairly often, I would say, wok. Then again, I at least give those folks credit for originality.
86. By J-Walk. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @03:38pm:

    wok, why is a homemade religion any different than a more established religion? In both cases, a human being picked and chose what to believe.
87. By wok. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @04:11pm:

    J-Walk, you know the answer -- faith. If the person has faith, and knows for themselves -- certain things to be true, etc, etc.
88. By J-Walk. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @04:16pm:

    Your answer makes no sense, wok.
    
    You scoffed at the idea of a "pick and choose" religion. Yet you are a devoted member of such a religion.
89. By Pancho. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @04:21pm:

    Wok and Mary are both right! Religion is a dessert topping AND a floor polisher!!
    
    (faith = delusion, spiritual = supernatural)
90. By Mary. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @04:24pm:

    "J-Walk, you know the answer -- faith. If the person has faith, and knows for themselves -- certain things to be true, etc, etc."
    
    Huh? What does THAT mean? That spiritual people have no faith? What "certain things" ??
    
    Everyone picks and chooses what they wish to believe; even you, wok.
    
    What do you have against the word "spiritual," anyway?
91. By sasha. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @04:27pm:

    I wonder what relationship "etc, etc" bears to "...."
92. By Mary. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @04:38pm:

    Ah curtis, I tick you off a lot, but know this: I am not in any way suggesting that MY death will be easier than yours. Why should it? We're both going to die, but how and when is not something we know. I may die in screaming agony and you may just turn around too quickly and whip - BANG! you're dead. It doesn't matter even a tiny bit; the world and the universe will go on - just as it's meant to.
    
    The "unknown" I'm speaking about is NOW. If there IS a God and one acknowledges his existence, then there is an assumption of an obligation to behave in a certain way, go to church, stop cussing, boozing and chasing girls, etc. - formidable, indeed. If I don't acknowledge a God, that image of a potentially annoyed "God" watching every move I make vanishes. Ah, relief.
93. By wok. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @04:40pm:

    I see myself as being aligned with true, original Christianity. I can tell you where I come from, faith and belief-wise, and you will be able to know what I'm talking about.
    
    That's very different than, "I believe the Torah is very important, and I believe Jesus was a great man, but also I guess you could say I'm an Earth-Buddhist."
94. By Curtis. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @04:43pm:

    Mary -- you don't tick me off a lot, just enough.
95. By wok. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @04:43pm:

    Also, I know that there's on true God. I believe that there's only one way to salvation - and that it's not a make-up-your-own-road type thing. There are core beliefs to Christianity, is what I'm saying.
96. By Mary. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @04:46pm:

    As for the words of Park Ave., did you even READ this part?
    
    "Historically, a great many civilizations, including the Greeks, believed that randomness (the unpredictable part of statistics) is the hand of God at work.
    
    Even the Gods of Greek mythology all answered to something greater than themselves, what they called 'Chance.'"
    
    It's just a point that civilizations WAY before Christianity believed in a power larger than themselves. Now you may argue that with TODAY'S incredibly brilliant science and technology, we HAVE the answers - we don't need that stupid stuff anymore. Of course, the Greeks thought they knew it all, too. Boy, did they ever!
    
    I don't believe that atheists think of themselves as gods, but their confidence in their OWN knowledge as all that's necessary is self-centered and egocentric.
97. By Mary. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @04:50pm:

    And so is the belief of anyone who thinks he or she has all the answers and doesn't have anything left to learn - including religious fundamentalists.
98. By J-Walk. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @05:02pm:

    confidence in their OWN knowledge as all that's necessary is self-centered and egocentric.
    
    Speaking of self-centered and egocentric. Doesn't that also apply to people who believe that there's a god watching over them? A god who loves them? And sent his only son to to die just for them? A god who listens to their prayers? A god who checks up on them to ensure that they have the correct set of beliefs?
    
    The need for a greater power has always been around, and it always will be for one simple reason: People want to believe that they live on after they die. That's really all there is to it.
99. By another larry. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @05:05pm:

    Religion is like something you step in, if you don't scrap it off, you'll smell like it all day.
100. By wok. Comment posted 22-Dec-2005 @05:06pm:

     That's really all there is to [J-Walk's opinion on the matter].
     
     And I can respect that - I disagree, but I do appreciate that that's what, um, you believe. Or, I should say I understand that for you -- that's what you yourself know to be true.
     
     More power to ya.
101. By Keith. Comment posted 23-Dec-2005 @12:29am:

     "I see myself as being aligned with true, original Christianity."
     
     I don't know about that Wok. Have you sold all of your property and given the money to the poor yet? I'm pretty sure Jesus said that this was a big part of following him. Or maybe I just don't know enough about apologetics to talk to an original Christian.

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