Thursday, 05 November, 2009

1. By Shel-tone. Comment posted 05-Nov-2009 @02:11pm:

   More people die from poverty in the US many times more than people have ever died from terrorism in the US, yet people like this have no problem letting the government shovel money into fake wars against terrorism.
2. By Onecos. Comment posted 05-Nov-2009 @02:13pm:

   Ok... The Libs state there's several million Americans without healthcare. So, why do we need to force healthcare reform. Why doesn’t the government simply purchase healthcare insurance for those who don't have it? This plan would be a lot cheaper that what Obama is proposing.
   
   Score another for Onecos....
3. By Mean Jean. Comment posted 05-Nov-2009 @02:19pm:

   You can't fix stupid...
   
   
   
   
   but you can get them to carry a sign.
4. By scot. Comment posted 05-Nov-2009 @02:37pm:

   Libs are smart. Conservatives are dumb. Carter was smart. Reagan was dumb. Bush was dumb. Clinton was smart. Quayle was dumb. Gore was smart. Cheney was dumb. Biden is smart. Bush is dumb. Obama is smart. Only smart people know global warming is created by man and we will all be underwater in ten years.
5. By andrew. Comment posted 05-Nov-2009 @02:53pm:

   Libs are smart. Conservatives are dumb. Carter was smart. Reagan was dumb. Bush was dumb. Clinton was smart. Quayle was dumb. Gore was smart. Cheney was dumb. Biden is smart. Bush is dumb. Obama is smart.
   
   Cheney isn't dumb.
6. By Redwood. Comment posted 05-Nov-2009 @03:29pm:

   Only smart people know global warming is created by man and we will all be underwater in ten years.

   
   
   And while I don't know a single smart person who is a global warming denier, nor do I know a single person who believes we will all be underwater in ten years. That would be the ridiculous straw man argument of one of those conservatives you say are so dumb.
7. By Miss Cellania. Comment posted 05-Nov-2009 @06:28pm:

   Here is how health care debates between average people go.
   
   Person 1: You know, (today's talking point).
   
   Person 2: That's not true!
   
   Person 1. Yes, it is!
   
   Person 2. No, it's not!
   
   Person 1. Yes, it is!
   
   And it never goes anywhere sane from there.
8. By Snag. Comment posted 05-Nov-2009 @07:59pm:

   "You can't fix stupid .. but you can vote them out" !
   ... er, didn't that already happen ?
   
   Healthcare, like most of the arguements about Obama's reforms, has been boiled down to Socialism v/s Capitalism. The simple truth is that both are flawed ideologies. Until we find something perfect, a judicious mix of the two seems to be the best outcome.
   
   Australia's healthcare system is a mix of both, and it hasn't turned us all into radical communists. Sure, it needs continual tweaking and is chronically 'top-heavy' (money diverted away from front-line services into self-serving administration and even other gov't programs), but it does seem more equitable than the current US model.
   
   Whatever the outcome, I believe the biggest problem in any healthcare system is the risk of funds-diversion while operating from a consolidated-revenue pool. Taxes and contributions collected for health should be quarantined from other uses.
9. By wok. Comment posted 05-Nov-2009 @10:12pm:

   Pelosi's continuing to say that people can 'keep their current healthcare' is so disingenuous. Who in their right mind believes any private insurer will be able to compete with Uncle Sugar.
   
   Health care needs to stay private. Healthcare is Not a Right that Anyone Owes You. If you think it is, I wonder what other things you don't quite 'get.'
10. By Bisbonian. Comment posted 05-Nov-2009 @10:45pm:

    to create a socialist America," he said.

    
    
    Error. Shouldn't that be socialist radical muslim fascist America?
11. By Spokane Mary. Comment posted 05-Nov-2009 @11:59pm:

    Has the word "socialist" replaced the word "Islamofascist" in the wingnut rhetoric, then?
12. By Clap Your Hands Say Yeah. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @02:15am:

    Health care needs to stay private. Healthcare is Not a Right that Anyone Owes You. If you think it is, I wonder what other things you don't quite 'get.'
    

    
    Translate: Health care is a business. If you can't afford health care, deal with it. Die if you must.
13. By Dave (TDC). Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @02:29am:

    Why is "socialist" a bad word? The antithesis would be anti-socialist, ie people who are anti-social. Ok a bit twee but actually true, the people who oppose socialism are the selfish jerks who say "I'm ok, and I don't care one iota about anybody who's worse off than me". The worst aspect is they can’t understand why their stance is morally reprehensible.
14. By Keithuk. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @02:40am:

    Health care needs to stay private. Healthcare is Not a Right that Anyone Owes You. If you think it is, I wonder what other things you don't quite 'get.'

    
    
    This is the saddest comment I've read here for ages. What is wrong with you people?
    
    While I was able to work I was happy for my contributions to help people who needed medical help. Now I'm disabled I get all the medical help I need. It's a no-brainer, people. But then, of course, I've always been proud to be a Socialist (do you even know what Socialism is, or do you just automatically buy into the "I'm OK, so #### you" Murrican Way?)
15. By hannybanny. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @02:42am:

    From the perspective of a non-American who knows many other non-Americans, I think the rest of the world is amazed that a) you don't already have a public health option (to use the parlance of the current campaign) and b) half of you don't think you need one.
    
    I've noticed that change is always resisted -- even if it's the best idea anyone's ever had. There's always one mouse who pipes up, "Who moved my cheese?"
    
    I'm Australian. Our health care system is not perfect but if you get sick, there is a net to catch you, no matter who you are or what you do or don't do for a living. Health care is a basic right and the current American system is NOT a system that any other country in the world looks at and envies.
    
    I think it would be interesting to survey the perspectives of American expats who've experienced other health care systems firsthand. A brief search left me with the impression that many American expats, who have experienced free, subsidised health, really liked it.
16. By Snag. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @04:09am:

    Since this post is as much about Obama as health-care, I think the following Reuters article is pertinent. It seems the only people on earth who think he and his ideas suck are a disaffected group of his fellow Americans .......
    U.S. becomes top country brand under Obama
    http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE5A50TB20091106
17. By RikS. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @04:46am:

    As many others have said, the profit needs to be taken out of healthcare insurance. Our costs are double, half for their profits and high admin costs and half for the actual healthcare.
18. By wok. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @10:01am:

    "the profit needs to be taken out of healthcare"
    
    Good God Almighty - who in their right mind thinks this is a good idea? If you want the quality of healthcare to spiral downwards, maybe!
19. By Taco Jocko. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @10:10am:

    Let's see the revolt when they have to cancel Medicare and VA funding.
20. By Bisbonian. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @10:25am:

    "the profit needs to be taken out of healthcare"
    
    Good God Almighty - who in their right mind thinks this is a good idea? If you want the quality of healthcare to spiral downwards, maybe!

    
    
    So then we should probably have "for profit" street repair, air traffic control, and sewage collection, then. Wait, scratch that last one...we want that to spiral downward.
21. By afj. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @10:49am:

    Who in their right mind believes any private insurer will be able to compete with Uncle Sugar.
    Certainly not the folks at UPS or FedEx competing with Uncle Sugar's Postal System.
22. By decibelcat. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @11:48am:

    By hannybanny:
    I think it would be interesting to survey the perspectives of American expats who've experienced other health care systems firsthand.
    
    I lost my left foot to amputation five and a half years ago. When I was telling a friend (who has lived in India, France, England and Sweden among other places) about it, he replied "It happened to you here in America? You're F****D!".
23. By wok. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @12:45pm:

    afi, I don't disagree - the Post Office serves a purpose but I'd be okay with putting those tax dollars back in my pocket.
24. By wok. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @12:46pm:

    hannybanny, are you implying that US Healthcare is WORSE than those other countries? If so, you're head is buried pretty deep in the sand.
25. By decibelcat. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @12:48pm:

    No healthcare is always worse than some healthcare.
26. By wok. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @12:48pm:

    Bisbonian, we do have for profit street repair, air traffic control, and sewage collection. In a lot of places.
27. By hannybanny. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @05:30pm:

    <quote>hannybanny, are you implying that US Healthcare is WORSE than those other countries?</quote>
    
    wok, it is worse, because it's tied to your status. Who you are and how much you're paid. Despite sharing the modern belief in individualism and self-determinism, most (all?) other first world countries nevertheless provide a minimum basic level of health care as a right, irrespective of class, title or reputation.
    
    I'm an observer and have no vested personal interest in the outcome of your country's attempt at health care reform. I just feel really lucky that I'm not at the mercy of the current system.
    
    decibalcat - I understand why your friend replied that way! I hope the care you got somehow managed to exceed their expectations. :)
28. By hannybanny. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @05:33pm:

    Erm, sorry about the "<quote>" mishap... :)
29. By Spokane Mary. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @06:25pm:

    What is wrong with you people?

    
    

    (do you even know what Socialism is, or do you just automatically buy into the "I'm OK, so #### you" Murrican Way?)

    
    Keithuk, once again I ask you to recognize that this is wok's brilliant comment you're responding to, and wok is a right-wing extremist - he's typical of only a minority of Americans, not the whole bunch of us. The reason health care is being overhauled right now is because the majority of Americans deem it necessary and the majority of Americans want health care to be available to all citizens, not just those who can afford it. The ones who are fighting it are doing so because money is their God, big business their place of worship, and they are the "chosen" people who "have earned" the best of health care; the rest of us are just leeches. They may try to convince you that's what America thinks, but it's not - it's just what self-centered prigs think.
30. By decibelcat. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @06:44pm:

    Spokane Mary:
    they are the "chosen" people who "have earned" the best of health care; the rest of us are just leeches.
    
    The scary part is that there are so many people in this country who believe this despite the fact that they aren't in the income bracket that would "allow" them to think this way and they never will be. They support the viewpoints and agendas of the rich but they will never be allowed to become one of them. They are being slowly screwed like the rest of us but they are not only content, but happy about it.
31. By Iced. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @08:00pm:

    Right on the mark, decibelcat.
    
    That is so profound it's scary!
    
    That's the "brilliance" of the republican party. Convince people to support policies that are against their best interest.
32. By wok. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @08:26pm:

    Why is "socialist" a bad word?
    
    Buy a HISTORY BOOK.
    
    I'm an observer and have no vested personal interest in the outcome of your country's attempt at health care reform.
    
    My foot. Let me tell you - if Pelosi (thanks for posting the bill like you promised) and her ilk get this thing passed - it won't just affect healthcare in the US - you'll see the quality of healthcare and the amount of energy dedicated to new medicine and new technology drop QUICK. We'll all suffer. Secondly - when the bill comes and it tanks our economy for generations - you better believe it's gonna affect you and yours.
33. By Spokane Mary. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @08:41pm:

    Buy a HISTORY BOOK.

    
    Can't you do better than that, wok?
    
    No, I don't suppose you can.
    
    

    when the bill comes and it tanks our economy for generations -

    
    As if the economy hasn't been "tanked" already by your frat boy and his pals; did you miss that?
34. By wok. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @08:45pm:

    So, S/M, you think the Speaker Pelosi has done a FINE job, and that the administration has been very effective in their efforts? God help us if you do.
    
    Also: "Fraternities? Man, screw that noise."
    
    
35. By wok. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @08:51pm:

    
36. By wok. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @09:06pm:

    
37. By Bisbonian. Comment posted 06-Nov-2009 @11:24pm:

    Why is "socialist" a bad word?
    
    Buy a HISTORY BOOK.

    
    
    You mean that one about how the evil Swedish socialists destroyed democracy and took over the world? I read that one too.
38. By Lizzy Longlife. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @02:28am:

    What a bunch of idiots, some of the commentors here included.
39. By hannybanny. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @03:19am:

    On a physical level, what's essential for a human being's long-term existence? Water, food, probably shelter, and health care.
    
    If you are poor, disabled, orphaned, mentally ill, or in some other way down on your luck and unable to help yourself, what happens to you? In the current US health care system, that is a scary question.
    
    Most belief systems and philosophies advocate helping the disadvantaged, and a minimum level of publicly funded health care is one reasonable way of administering that help.
40. By hannybanny. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @03:31am:

    As far as your fears of advances in the medical field being halted by the US as the last industrial country to provide a minimum level of free health care, you might like to read an article positing that such a scenario would increase competition and standards in the private sector.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124580516633344953.html
    
    I guess you might draw some parallels to Rupert Murdoch wanting public broadcasters like the BBC in the UK and the ABC in Australia to stop providing free online news, as it hurts his ability to control and profit. By providing free online news content, public broadcasters act as competition, ensuring certain minimum standards in the private sector.
41. By RikS. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @05:53am:

    A little late but I said "the profit needs to be taken out of healthcare insurance." not out of "healthcare".
    A big difference
42. By wok. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @10:23am:

    Robert REICH? Mister Berkeley, you bring to the table. Good stuff.
    
    Here's some other stuff Reich has said:
    
    ...the bargaining leverage of the federal government... [will] force drug companies... to reduce their costs, but that means less innovation, and that means less new products, and less new drugs on the markets..."
    
    http://tinyurl.com/yakc7zg
43. By RikS. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @10:42am:

    Like we're worried about drug companies profit. I'm sure they'll do fine
    
    Or Health care insurance profits. The insurance companies are just middlemen between us and health insurence. I just as soon let the gov do that.
44. By RikS. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @10:43am:

    Whoops!
    "The insurance companies are just middlemen between us and healthcare"
45. By wok. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @11:33am:

    Profits, RikS, are part of how this whole system works. Or maybe you don't understand that basic concept.
46. By wok. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @11:55am:

    Oh, and what about the fact that insurance will become MANDATORY?
    
    And this very recent revelation that if you don't comply, comrade, and buy a $15,000 Policy - you'll be sent to prison:
    
    http://tinyurl.com/ykhk3k3
    
    Seriously? Some of ya'll are FOR this legislature? WOW.
47. By wok. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @12:10pm:

    Some info on how Pelosi and crew would disincentivize the creation of new drugs: http://tinyurl.com/yd9ddy2
48. By Bisbonian. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @12:18pm:

    Seriously? Some of ya'll are FOR this legislature? WOW.

    
    I'm not for the legislation in it's current form in the least. The legislation sucks. The mandatory insurance aspect of it sucks. But that doesn't negate the fact that the current system also sucks. We had an opportunity to fix it, come up with a better program, but the "conservatives" like yourself derailed the debate with nonsense about death panels and other red herrings, and now we're left with a cobbled together mess in an attempt to win (congressional) votes.
    
    Thanks a bunch.
49. By Bisbonian. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @12:20pm:

    Profits, RikS, are part of how this whole system works.

    
    Uh, yeah. that's one of the things wrong with it. People that contribute nothing to anyone's actual health skimming off a profit. Middlemen. How many TV commercials have you seen offering to "eliminate the middleman"? Why?
50. By wok. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @12:24pm:

    Bisbonian, the death panels are PART of this bill.
    
    This is a cluster. And it's not going to benefit any of us. Oh and - 1.6 TRILLION dollars.
    
    "We had an opportunity to fix it, come up with a better program..."
    
    I'm going to have to disagree on that -- Pelosi and her majority haven't exactly been bipartisan (which she said she would) in regards to allowing 'better program' to happen. Instead it's bad, bad, bad all around.
    
    Conservatives didn't create this bill. No sir.
51. By wok. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @12:30pm:

    Live
    http://www.c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN_wm.aspx
52. By RikS. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @01:59pm:

    I'm not in favor of this bill either. It's been disastrously politicised.
    I'm just saying we need to eliminate this middle man profit. I guess that would take another bill. Probably won't happen any time soon. Some times the system just doesn't work. Sometimes Capitalism needs moderation like Socialistic ideas.
    
    I'd actually much prefer single-payer. We waste so much energy figuring the whole thing out trying to even understand what the insurance companies are really selling us. Let's all have the same system. At least we can all argue against the same thing. People with plenty of money wil always have their own thing. If they have enough they don't even really need health insurance
53. By wok. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @02:54pm:

    Better live link: http://tinyurl.com/yhhnh63
    
    List of 'no' voting Democrats (29) as of 3:00 EST, a little under two hours ago.
    (I believe we're all hoping this list grows by 12 or more, soon.)
    http://tinyurl.com/yhkjbhv
54. By wok. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @03:09pm:

    31 now, PA and VA
55. By RikS. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @03:21pm:

    I'd vote for it just to shake things up
56. By decibelcat. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @04:01pm:

    By wok:
    (I believe we're all hoping this list grows by 12 or more, soon.)
    
    Please speak for only yourself. It has become tiring to see that you still think you are speaking for everybody.
    
    And I still don't like Ted Nugent!
57. By wok. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @04:33pm:

    You're okay with this bill, decibelcat? Good grief, how?
58. By wok. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @05:03pm:

    And now it's 33 or 34 Democrats against, confirmed, according to Representative Cantor's office. Nine or ten more to go.
    
    http://www.nationalreview.com/doctor/
59. By Bisbonian. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @05:14pm:

    Bisbonian, the death panels are PART of this bill.

    
    You're a bigger moron than I thought.
60. By wok. Comment posted 07-Nov-2009 @05:18pm:

    Well that is a good point.
61. By decibelcat. Comment posted 08-Nov-2009 @10:14am:

    wok[/b,
    
    I wasn't speaking in any political sense. I simply think it's rude of you to assume that you speak for the other people on this blog.
    
    Politically, I'll take Groucho Marx's stand: If you're for it, I'm against it.
62. By decibelcat. Comment posted 08-Nov-2009 @10:15am:

    Don't ask me how my last post became all bold. It wasn't my intention. Sorry.
63. By Spokane Mary. Comment posted 08-Nov-2009 @04:13pm:

    And now it's 33 or 34 Democrats against, confirmed, according to Representative Cantor's office. Nine or ten more to go.

    
    Oops - where's wok now? The bill passed - not a major deal at this point since there are still hurdles to clear, but since he was keeping such close track of its progress, I find it odd that he hasn't mentioned that it passed.

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